Alert Security Systems

[jameskm]

I want to find out what is required for using two logitech 750e master systems in the same house (wiring).

I have already used all 6 cameras a commander can support but I need to use 10 cameras for my house.

How can I install additional cameras? I know I need to buy another 750e and 700e for extra cameras.

How does it work? I think I need to setup another computer with commander since a single install of commander can only support a total of 6 cameras. I guess I need to connect to alert.logitech.com to view all 10 cameras my account since the commander have only six camera support?

If I use the PoE 803.2af switch for the the camera 7-10, do I still need to buy a 750e master unit for the a 2nd system and how does the camera 7-10 gets detected in the commander?

And one last question is that Logitech seems to ran out of the 50' Cat5e cables and it's been a while since it's out of stock.

When will logitech restock them and what are the other supplier who makes these ultra flat Cat5e with short rj45 connectors? I tried but the regular ultraflat cat5e cables with the regular rj45 with the snagles won't fit in the logitech alert cameras.

Thanks a bunch!

[UselessS]

No one has jumped on this one yet, so I'll bite...qualified with the fact that I have not actually done this ( yet <g> ).  I do use a dual-boot system with Alert Commander in each...so I can see my 5 cameras in each, but it only sees one as the true master ( which is the site they belong to ).

Yes, you know you have to have a separate PC with Alert Commander for >6.  The 2nd PC would need a different site name when you setup Alert Commander there ( you can then select the sites on Web/Android/etc app ).

I don't "think" you have to have another 750e...as the existing network adapter should handle it.  But sure, a PoE switch for any camera you can run that way would be better. 

A possible alternative to getting the long flat cables is to just extend the current one via a Female/Female adapter ( I have done this...example: http://www.provantage.com/cables-go-20201~7CBTN09U.htm )...as long as the adapter/connectors are in a safe/dry/clean environment...if PoE, then a normal ethernet cable can go from there to the switch.

Now as for the installation, I think it best to assign a unique network password within the original Alert Commander so the new one won't see those cameras and vice-versa.   Like I said, someone else with specific experience/knowledge in >6 cameras should jump in here...there may be something in the forum already...I didn't search.

[jameskm]

Hello,

I agrees with you on using dual boot system to run two instances of the commander on the same computer. In fact, I've thought about using VMWare to run two Virtual Machines with windows xp on each.

With multiple Virtual Machine running on the same computer will act as an individual computer with a different IP address. I can set them up to use the same local network or two separate local networks. Each installation of the commander on each VM Machine will act as stand alone or individual as should be. So, running two systems on the same computer using VMware is possible and easy but cost do adds up.

But here comes the tricky part - I read it somewhere that Logitech suggests to use two homeplug devices with different computers with two different network addresses and two commanders installations. I am not really sure what it means.

If It means one must use separate the local network into two subnets or different local networks, I think the possibilities of using 10 cameras is not so simple or easy. I think I will need a powerful router that can route all traffic from two different subnets or local networks to the Internet transparently. Most home level DSL router and WiFi router are not capable of that feat.

I also don't know if one homeplug device can support more than 6 ip cameras and simultaneously connects to two commander systems. When the commander detects the homeplug and IP cameras, it also seems to remember the MAC (hardware address) of these devices. I don't know if two commanders can communicate to the single homeplug devices but it'll be interesting to see if it's possible without causing confusion to the two commander systems what cameras belong to what system.

If it doesn't work, I think it's too complicated to use two homeplugs on the same electrical lines. I am afraid the bandwidth will also decrease as the extra cameras are added to the same electrical lines.

So, PoE switch for the 2nd system with camera 7-10 seems a better way. But I still don't know if the PoE switch should be set as a different subnet or can use the same subnet as the camera 1-6.  If the ones on PoE requires different subnet in order to talk to a 2nd commander, it'll sure make this very complicated to route the traffice to and from the Internet.

At this point, I think someone with knowledgeable tech or networking experts from Logitech chime in as how their systems are made to extend beyond 6 cameras.

I also tried to find answers and solutions on Logitech Tech Support for the Alert systems and in the Alert forums but I didn't find anything worthwhile. I've read that one guy tries to run two systems but I don't know if he succeeded.

Anyway, I did put a password on the camera and homeplug to secure my homeplugs. Thanks for the tips!

[UselessS]

Let's assume you are purely PoE with 10 cameras...which removes the homeplug from the equation.  I would think that the network password assigned to instance 1 of Alert Commander uses that for those 6 cameras.  Instance 2 when installed should not see the 6...so it would just discover the 4 new ones placed online.  If the password thing only affected the homeplug devices, then us PoE folks ( and the new PoE-only business line of these cameras ) would be impacted...so logically, the Alert Commander and camera set are ID'd via that password...and no need to do any fancy subnet stuff on your network.

Having to use two homeplug network adapters is likely due to the password also including them in the picture...so if you do the password thing in an all homeplug environment, you would need two .  I don't think it is a capacity thing to use one, though as you stated, I would also be concerned about adding too much for all the house wiring to handle via homeplug...I'm sure there is a practical limit even in a very clean power environment.

I'm a PoE guy...so if/when I get >6, I'll need to understand it too.

[jameskm]

Let's assume you are purely on PoE systems with all 10 cameras. You'll still need to run two commanders because commanders can only have six view of cameras. I don't think you can discover the cameras online without them setup in the local commander first. You'll have to get the commander up and running for ten cameras before the commander registers them under your online account. I may be wrong but it's just a hunch that you need to get all 10 cameras dicovered from two commanders system. I guess you could use one online account for all ten cameras but you'll still need two local commanders running before all could be registered with online account for different sites.

The requirment for two different network seems a problem for a regular home use with less than powerful DSL routers. But in the sense of business environment, you can run multiple segments of different network address without problem because business class router can easily route multiple local networks to and from the Internet.

The password seems less of a problem. You could setup the same password for the all HomePlugs and they should see all cameras. I borrowed a friend's 750e system to try out briefly but haven't really gotten to play with a 2nd commander install and different networks.

I guess I will have to order another 750e and a PoE switch to experiement myself.

THANKS LOGITECH! You've been very supportive in a answering a customer question!

LOGITECH support and Techs are not reading my thread for some reasons? It's funny that they would conveniently ignore the guy who is going to spend over 2.5K (1.5K already and another 1K soon) for 10 of their Alert cameras.

[UselessS]

Your online acct can have multiple sites...basically one site for each Alert Commander instance/PC.  You don't even have to have each site on the same router...just a different site for each Alert Commander set of cameras.

Yes, you can't see the cameras anywhere until initialized/configured by an Alert Commander.  If you are starting from scratch with 10 new cameras, then setup the 1st 6 from one Alert Commander, assign a camera network password to that ( only one homeplug network adapter plugged-in at this point ).  Then go to the 2nd PC and do the same thing for the other 4 via the 2nd homeplug network adapter...not using the same camera network password as the 1st set.  By using the same password with two homeplug network adapters it would render the password method of keeping them separate somewhat useless...might as well have just one network adapter and no password ( it could be done this way, but pretty messy/confusing ).

If you can run via PoE, why would you even fool with the homeplug stuff ?

[jameskm]

Good Question why I want to fool with HomePlug stuff. I think it's because I don't want to run 10 flat cat 5e around the outside of my house. And running 10 different Cat5e around the house and the yard become a nuisance when the existing power line can function as a media. It'll just be ridiculus to run 10 wires when you can buy a surveillance package cheaper and run Coax all around your house or use the wireless IP cameras. But wireless is not my prefer choice so I went with the Alert. Now, I seem it's regrettable at this point with Logitech has been silent so far.

I think the problem lies with the limtations of Alert system and software and nothing to do with the HomePlug. You can have 10 Homeplug devices on your house wiring without a problem.

I want to hide the camera wires as much as possible and out of sight. It's pointless to show any intruder the wires when they know just cutting the thin wire will disable the security system. And I don't have an ability to run new Cat5e wire inside the walls in my old house. Even if I hire the pro to run the new cat 5e wire inside the wall, the regular cat5e doesn't work with the Alert. I need to find a special short jacket version of RJ45 and I need to order from China in the quantity of 5000. Now, how funny is that?

The other point is that I have alerady got six cameras right on the HomePlug. I think it's probably my best interest to run 4 camera from PoE but I am not sure that will work also. Once you get pass 6 camera and a single local commander, it's probably become a nightmare to mess with the Alert.

But nothing is certain till I am going to try it myself. But it would be nice to hear some good feedback from the LogiTech before I spent time and money on the things that is not certain to work. Thus I started this thread but you know how Logitech has responded to questions so far.

[Kiruban]

Ok, I didn't want to interfere since UselessS was on the case and he was doing well. 

 I Understand that you have 2 Logitech 750e Master Systems with a total of 10 Camera's (assuming mixture of indoor and outdoor).

 You have two Options here:

Option # 1.

 You have already setup one System with 6 Camera's. You need to setup the rest of the 3 camera's.

 Providing your Home Powerline Supports it, this is what you need to do now.

 Get access to another Computer, Install the 2nd Outdoor Master System and setup the second system like you did with the 1st one.

 Here is the Catch. Put a Password for the First System and remove it entirely from the Router and unplug all the Camera's. Setup the Second System and Put a Password on it. 

 Now you have two Systems or Locations in 1 house. Say for example (1st floor and 2nd floor). Plug everything back in and technically you should be able to find all the Camera's in both your Systems.

 Option # 2,

 Connect all the Camera, download and install Blue Iris "3rd Party Software" which we do not support but, works with our cameras. This software supports upto 64 Camera's apparently while we only support 6 per system.

 As UselessS had already suggested, PoE is the best option to go with this many camera's and If you prefer just one Computer, Blue Iris is something for you to consider.

 You can read more about this 3rd Party Software from the below Provided link:

http://forums.logitech.com/t5/Alert-Security-Systems/Blue-Iris-The-Best-Alternative-Software-For-the...

 Hope this helps.

[jameskm]

Hello Kiruban,

Thanks for chiming in. I totally agreed that UslessS has been trying to help. But I think he wants to know some definite answer just like I do.

To recap my question and my situation with Alert, I have sixe cameras on HomePlug in one system right now. But I need to expand to 10 outdoors cameras and possibly two indoor cameras.

I need to setup 4 cameras in a second system. I have read it somewhere on Logitech website that I need to use two separate systems with two different computers in two different network. What does it mean by two different network? Is it electrical / powerlines or the IP network?

The password thing is not a problem for me. I've already found that Homeplug PoE injector is interchangeable as long as you have set the correct password for the new one. In fact, I came across the trick you mentioned when I borrowed my friend's master system to try out briefly and found that out.

I am thinking about going PoE route for the camera 7-10 as you and UselessS have already suggested. But again, Logitech has ran out of the correct Cat5 wires for a long length and the Cat5e splitter / connector isn't very well suited for the outdoor use.

But most of all, I don't like exposing the wires to the preying eyes. Secuirty systems must meant something that can't be easily compromised and it's supposed to be physically secure as well. I would run the wires in the EMI conduit if needed. I think the HomePlug network has provided the better protection since I keep all the homeplug PoE splitter indoor and drill a small home in the wall to get the Cat5 router to about 2"-3" from the camera. The cables are so short so that you can't easily compormise the wires. It's what I thought anyway.

Now about Blue Iris, I am more than happy to pay $50 for it. Thanks for the link and the info.

I think Logitech should do a major rewrite on the Commander software. It  suc ks, buggy and unstable. It crashes on me several times a day and it lost the connection to some cameras after the crash. I need to restart the commander a few times in order to get all camera back viewable in Commander again.

Now, it only happens to the Commander. I can view all cameras from Alert Online account even if the cameras are disappeared in the local Commander.

I have the latest software and updated all the camera and homeplug to the lastest firmware to date.

While rewritting the Commander, I think it's possible to add multi-sites connection to the Commander just like the Alert online.  I am sure a lot of Customers wish for that.

And now, about the Cat5 cables, when can Logitech have a new stock? I could use a couple of 50ft right now!

Thanks again,

James

[Kiruban]

Hello Jameskm,

"I need to setup 4 cameras in a second system. I have read it somewhere on Logitech website that I need to use two separate systems with two different computers in two different network. What does it mean by two different network? Is it electrical / powerlines or the IP network?"

 I am pretty sure this statement that you had read about would have had to do with two different IP Networks as in having two different router's.

 This is not a necessary factor if you are going to have it in the same house. It only comes into factor when you come across the Different Circuits in your house (Phase #1, Phase # 2) although they all go through the same fuse box.

 PoE will eliminate the above problem. 

 As far as the Cables are concerned, I do not have any immediate reply for you. I will definitely find out for you. I should have this reply sometimes tomorrow for you.