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Tearing my hair out...
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11-27-2008 08:05 AM
"Programming" (I use the term very loosely) the harmony one and....
- Trying to delete page 2 of 17 from custom buttons, I didn't even bother counting the time and number of mouse clicks involved.
- Trying to configure the same model for a friend, based on my configuration, which I wanted to copy but....
- Trying to navigate 4 nested wizards trying to find the one one that lets me specify exactly what I need, instead of consistently mis-assuming.
- Trying endless model numbers for my TV just to get one where all the necessary remote buttons were available, THEN being lumbered with extra defined buttons that don't do anything, and STILL having to manually reprogram some; the model exists in the logitech database, it just isn't defined correctly
- Wondering why I must click "Done" to exit or cancel, and a radio button + "Next" to start a wizard, instead of just clicking a link or a regular button.
ARRRRGGGGHHHH
I paid good money for what is frankly good hardware, but software that would look patronising even on a child's toy.
Please please please let me edit text-based configuration files, open-source the protocol used to talk to the remote (or even just the api exposed by the drivers), drop the need for a persistent internet connection, support the concordance project. I'd happily and freely commit time and code to such a project.
Something... Anything... Just not the nightmare we all currently have to deal with
Is it any wonder that professional installers won't touch the harmony range with a barge-pole?
Logitech, you are doing yourself a great disservice and are almost certainly strangling your own market. I for one am ashamed to have to tell others NOT to buy a harmony due to these critical flaws, I would invariably be given the task to configuring the thing and have, on more than one occasion, come VERY close to demanding a refund after frustation at setting it up for myself.
Re: Tearing my hair out...
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11-27-2008 08:16 AM
- as far as deleting page 2 of 17...that's gotta be device mode...which is there for nothing more than testing...setup, customize, and use activities. you can place whatever commands you want on the LCD of the activity (as long as the device is in the activity)
- if the setup is exactly the same, call logitech and have them clone your account
- what are you trying to do? I'm sure we can help.
- enter your tv model number. learn any commands that don't work. the database can get 'junked up' because people don't know what they're doing. they want to use the remote in device mode, but have their 'tv' control the volume from the receiver. a simple activity would achieve this, but some people decide to learn over the existing volume commands with the commands from their receiver. I'm not 100% sure how the database is managed, but I know that can ruin it. if needed, call logitech and work through correcting the database entry for the device.
- beats me
(Note: I am not affiliated with Logitech®, Inc.) Have you seen the FAQ Sticky? Useful Links Definition of Delays
Re: Tearing my hair out...
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11-27-2008 09:07 AM - edited 11-27-2008 09:21 AM
palpatine:
All I can add to WA is that not one of your problems IS a problem, and to a great extent they are actually advantages - not features that would put off "professional installers" for whom it is not intended anyway, but features that would and in almost all cases do attract to it ordinary users, for whom it is designed.
However, to go through your points:
Devices is a store of all the available commands; it is for reference, not for use, and the contents therefore do not need to be deleted, nor should they be.
You don't even say what the problem is about copying over your set-up to another Harmony. The process is actually simplicity itself.
What ARE "nested wizards"? If you mean separate pages three or four of them actually make things easier - but maybe that's not what you mean.
There are vast numbers of all of very many types of devices. The Harmony database carries a very wide range of them, but if some are missing, or not complete, that is far from being a major criticism, and such deficiencies can almost always and freely be dealt with by Logitech support.
Maybe clicking an extra and redundant button IS a major drawback, but many other users - without the superior knowledge of computer operation with which you and I are bestowed
- no doubt find that again the feature is a helpful advantage. Logi can't be expected to provide different methods to cater for different levels of computer training.
Based on my experience, and on that of many others who have reported here and elsewhere their own success, I have to say that ease of "programming" is actually a strong feature of Harmonys; and to suggest that your contrasting frustration is likely to have been of your own making.
H H
Re: Tearing my hair out...
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11-27-2008 11:29 AM
If I get this right, my fellow users are actively defending the current software?
I guess you were the same folks campaigning to have the microsoft office paperclip compulsory and not allow it to be disabled, and furthermore to insist that it remains connected to the internet to make sure it keeps up to date with all those "looks like you're writing..." document types that you'll never use...
Of course, the cynic in me suggests that the last two replies were from planted logitech employees ![]()
Honestly, is it really so advanced to want to delete multiple buttons at the same time, or to remove an empty slot or entire page and have all the following definitions "slide up" to fill the gap (seriously, millions of non-advanced users do this kind of thing in spreadsheets daily)
So why can't we have a way to edit the entire configuration in spreadsheet format? A pure text format would be better still, then the definition of the format could be published and a whole market would emerge for open source tools, people could exchange snippets and sub-definitions via forums. Don't underestimate the market for sales driven by word of mouth in the open-source community, just look at the popularity of jailbroken iPhones!
or are these truly advanced needs, only suitable for those of programmer level experience?
Re: Tearing my hair out...
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11-27-2008 12:26 PM
I'll modify your statement: Many users, including myself, find minor irritations in the software, but they don't prevent us in any way from achieving the functionality that we require of our remotes; whereas many others find the simple format of answering a few simple questions an improvement on most computer programs and set up their remotes effortlessly within a few minutes.
Again, there is no point in deleting commands in devices, so there is no point in changing the way of doing it.
And also again, Logi are unlikely to see any advantage in providing different forms of the set-up procedure to suit different levels of computer proficiency -and interest. For most users the form you want would be misleading, to put it mildly.
Harmony remotes do not have "truly advanced needs" - they're for switching devices on and off, and up and down, not for controlling nuclear reactors.
Of course there are other brands - at five times the price - that might do both. 
Re: Tearing my hair out...
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11-27-2008 12:47 PM
Unfortunately, all the other devices have the aesthetic appeal of... well... the Logitech harmony software! Harmony clearly has the best hardware by a long stretch, so is this a simple case of use being ignored and abandoned as customers once we've paid our money?
Although I know that ultimately I'll end up with a sweet-spot in terms of configuration, I'm currently finding that I actively postpone making changes that I know I want, because the process is about as pleasant, fast and painless as donating bone marrow.
At one point, the remote was configured to recognise TWENTY-SIX different commands that change input on my TV, curiously though my TV can only handle 7 inputs and not one of the pre-defined 26 specified analogue RF. And yes, I know that I only get a ridiculous number of pages in device-specific setup (as opposed to activities), but I still have to navigate that molasses via the combo-boxes when configuring an activity.
My ideal solution would be:
- click at start of range
- shift-click at end of range
- press "del" key
I'll leave it as an exercise to the reader to imagine the (numerous/tedious/repetitive) steps involved in the more "user-friendly" option that is alternatively provided by the current software. And no, phone support doesn't count, if technicians on the other end can do something, then what prevents exposing the same functionality to advanced end users?
Re: Tearing my hair out...
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11-27-2008 02:24 PM
(Note: I am not affiliated with Logitech®, Inc.) Have you seen the FAQ Sticky? Useful Links Definition of Delays
Re: Tearing my hair out...
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11-27-2008 02:53 PM
What do you mean about not updating things after the first week?
Two screens, 2 computers, 3 consoles, Scene lighting, satellite, CD/DVD, amp... I'm serious about my setup here, and also a perfectionist about having it work "just right", this is getting updated frequently.
So, my main criticisms are
- capabilities hidden deep behind multiple selections in the interface (I only EVER have TWO TASKS, assign devices to activities and reassigning the function of buttons, please can these be the focal point of the software?)
- non-intuitive names for options in the software (i.e. "done" button to cancel, when nothing has been done, **bleep**?)
- slow to respond (it's a web page, why oh why oh why?)
- constrained size (I have a list of 17 pages here, why must I cram it into 1/4 of my screen?)
- the amount of mind-numbing repetition needed for trivial tasks (I grouped all the brightness/contrast controls on one page, and then all the colour buttons, such tasks REALLY shouldn't require over 30 mins)
All logitech have to do is publish their programming interfaces. The rest will be solved by the community at no cost to themselves (but definitely gaining a lot of positive word-of-mouth publicity). So c'mon Logitech, why not eh? Have a chat with Phil over at the Concordance project and you'll even gain yourselves linux support for absolutely nothing!
Re: Tearing my hair out...
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11-27-2008 02:55 PM
Re: Tearing my hair out...
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11-27-2008 04:45 PM - edited 11-27-2008 04:50 PM
WA didn't say "updating things" - he said "use device mode" - quite a different matter.
"Hidden"? Deep"?
Assigning devices to Activities means setting up Activities - the front page has the option "Add Activity".
Reassigning the function of buttons means Customising them - again a button on the front page.
As before, you don't need to do anything with the 17 pages. Just leave them there and ignore them.
If you mean you grouped the commands in Devices then it might take time, but again - if that really is what you mean
- that was totally unnecessary. The only place where they might need to be grouped is in Activities and you don't have 17 pages there, do you?
WA says the faults are minor; I say they are no more than irritations.
I agree that select-delete would be a useful function, but, because it is so very rarely needed, I'd class the lack of it very low on the irritation scale.
27 IS a lot more inputs than I've come across before, but was it really such a hardship to select the one you wanted, once for each Activity you have?
