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Jojje
Posts: 3
Registered: ‎01-28-2013

F510 (also F310, F710) joystick design flaws

I'm a hobby game developer and occasional gamer who bought a Logitech F510 a few weeks ago.

 

I can tell you that this device has some serious issues that for me (and others who have lamented over it) are unacceptable. It's useless for anything that requires the kind of continuous precision required to steer a car or aim at something.

 

This device is really not for games in general but for some special niche I have yet to learn about. I wish this was somehow stated upfront.

 

Its most obvious deficiency is the huge hardware deadzones in the center of each joystick's axis. They simply don't report anything "near" the center. Logitech has stated on this forum that this is a feature, not a bug! But it is to me a design flaw because any gap should be a configurable software thing.

 

The only configurable thing about the deadzone is at which point the values start ramping up. Ofcourse, it doesn't help to turn this down because of the hardware gaps, but if you do, values can become stuck at something else than 0 at the supposed center. You can reproduce it like this:
0) Use JoyTest.exe, jstest-gtk or something that visualize your gamepad axes, preferably with raw values. (The ones in Logitech Gaming Software is probably too tiny.)
1) With any joystick axis, push it one way more than a little.
2) Release it and it goes back to the center. Fine.
3) Now push it in the opposite direction, but just a _tiny_ bit (less than 1600 out of 32768 units in one direction). You have to be careful not to exceed it.
4) Release it and now it is stuck on a low value! It doesn't come down to zero.

 

Another thing that explains the inaccuracy felt in games is the huge turn threshold. You have to overcome the threshold until values start going in the opposite direction. It's like the ketchup effect where first nothing happens... still nothing... and suddenly there's too much. Again, this should be a configurable software thing. To reproduce this:
0) As above.
1) Push any joystick axis slowly and steadily in one direction - and you can see it's reasonably smooth.
2) Now start going in the other direction. Only it won't move until a big treshold is overcome.

 

Then there's the round joystick holes. To me it's only limiting because you can't reach the corners where both axes are fully min/max. Some games only need a circle but why limit things in the hardware to that case?

 

I'm just disappointed with this thing and wanted to provide clear information about what this thing does, and doesn't, because even reviewers don't care to mention these "details".

 

Logi Nu
stormeigol
Posts: 3
Registered: ‎01-23-2013

Re: F510 (also F310, F710) joystick design flaws

im too have f510 (i buyed ago 4 days) 

my pad react exactly as you say, i cant play good GRID because the dead zone , even with dxtweak i dont get fix it.

 

I also share your discomfort, when i view f510 images and internet reviews , that excites me  but the only what i find is

 

very harder buttons , triggers especially

 

bad force feedback in all games, gamepad motors never reach 40% power (after 40% start vibrate like a ps2 but only using testing software, in games this never occurs)

 

notable deadzone

 

 

ll be more careful the next time  buying a gamepad, i hope you too.

 

Greetings, sorry if i misrepresented your topic.

Logi Nu
Jojje
Posts: 3
Registered: ‎01-28-2013

Re: F510 (also F310, F710) joystick design flaws

Thanks for your comment. Yes, I'll be even more careful in the future. Honest reviews are rare though. I actually saw something about the deadzones somewhere but I got the impression that it was configurable (since it surely must be, right). I'll have a Rumblepad 2 any day in the mail. I've heard good things about it compared to the F510, except maybe for the coord quality. Even if the axis resolution may be worse it must be way better without the issues I've mentioned. I'll come back with a report about it. ;-)
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Jojje
Posts: 3
Registered: ‎01-28-2013

Re: old Rumblepad 2 vs F510 (also F310, F710)

[ Edited ]

So I got the old Logitech Rumblepad 2 and how does it compare?

 

In my opinion it's a good choice. No problem driving a car with this one... Pure fun.

(-) Sure, it doesn't come with the analog trigger buttons. I could have used those..

(-) Sure, the resolution is a bit worse. It's in 256 steps but it seems enough. (Twice that of a MIDI control! :smileyhappy:)

(+) It doesn't have the hardware deadzones, yay!!

(+) There is no noticeable "turn treshold" (it's 2 steps), yay!!

(+) The joystick holes are square as they should be, yay!

The rest seems the same.

I don't know about the vibrator motors but in the F510 there are one motor on each side. One has a big weight on it and the other has a small one.

It's DirectInput only but there are ways to emulate XInput in software.

This one works fine in linux too, as the F510 did.

 

That's it. Now I'll get rid of the F510.

Logi Nu
gerdb
Posts: 4
Registered: ‎06-08-2013

Re: F510 (also F310, F710) joystick design flaws

on the turn threshold, I found the same, and it's really annoying. as I just posted in a different thread, I believe the reason is some kind of self-calibration. as long as you move the sticks just a bit the dead zone keeps rather small (and still acceptable for me). you will get the full steering values already at halfway to the edge, meaning, your car won't turn in more if you push the stick further.

as soon as you push the stick fully in one direction the dead zone has been extended. this is the same effect as if you'd calibrate a joystick, only that here the zero value gets lost. the steering "window" gets pushed to the edge.

 

if I only knew how to switch off that self-calibration routine which seems to run in the background...

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Timppu
Posts: 2
Registered: ‎03-11-2013

Re: F510 (also F310, F710) joystick design flaws


Jojje wrote:

Then there's the round joystick holes. To me it's only limiting because you can't reach the corners where both axes are fully min/max. Some games only need a circle but why limit things in the hardware to that case?

 


I got directed to this old discussion from some Youtube video.

 

This complaint about round joystick holes... I just checked my original PS2 and XBox gamepads, and their joystick holes are also completely round, just like with Logitech F310. So to me it would seem that square joystick holes are abnormal in gamepads.

 

I recall having square joystick holes in some old cheapo PC gamepad I had before, and actually it irritated me to no end. It felt awful when trying to make round smooth movements around the edges, it always made moves like that jerky.

 

So at least I am definitely voting against square joystick holes.