PC Gaming

[Socob]

@ CharlesB:

I'm happy that someone finally decided to give an answer that's at all informative, but your post raises a number of questions.

1.) If this was done intentionally and with a clear goal in mind, then why did the Logitech tech support

     a.) acknowledge the issue as a bug, confirming its existence even by going so far as sending replacements,

     b.) even state that there would be a new firmware version to fix the issue and that it has already been implemented and

     c.) give a multitude of answers regarding this question, often contradicting but never including the version you have just presented us?

2.) I fail to see how disabling 20% of the thumbsticks' range is "smoothing out" anything. It sounds rather like a crowbar approach.

3.) I understand that the choice you made was a design decision. However, I cannot grasp why you would force something that affects individual experiences so differently on the users, giving them no opportunity to configure that gamepad's deadzone. A simple checkbox labeled "Huge deadzone on/off" would have been sufficient. I mean, you went far beyond that in the Logitech Gaming Software: it gives you very customizable options for the deadzone - why can't we use that to set the controller's deadzone? I thought configuration was the LGS' purpose. Now, you have essentially broken the deadzone option, because setting it to 0% leaves you with anything but a 0% deadzone.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your answer as it is quite useful, but these decisions and Logitech's behavior in the whole matter are deeply puzzling to me. I still have a support ticket running after (for three months now) - the last thing that was suggested to me was to install chipset drivers for my motherboard.

[CharlesB]

Socob -

1) Because agents sometimes panic and try to come up with solutions or answers that may not be fully informed. It unfortunately happens everywhere. I've been busy with my day job here, saw this thread on the side, and so I'm establishing the fact of the matter (Plus I'm going to write a communication out to the agents RE: this)

2) Disabling? Establishing a deadzone is not disabling. Also, as per DIview the deadzone is about 5% from center, which can fluctuate slightly because of the hysteresis on the thumbstick (All thumbsticks have this). We're matching the thumbstick spec that most game developers are coding for, eg we saw some games that relied on the 360 gamepad's natural deadzone, which without our deadzone compensation were unplayably twitchy and were causing end user customer testers to complain.

3) Because the gamepad is XINPUT. XInput doesn't play nice with any software. It's a direct USB>system>game API. You can't use Logitech software to change the behavior of XInput. XInput also appears to be the future gamepad standard that's required on GFW games, so this is the primary state of the gamepad. The D mode is a gamepad mode to provide support for older games and web games with Logitech Gaming Software, and allow Mac users the ability to use it as well (albeit without software). Having it default to XInput values provided the best solution for everyone, as we wanted to provide the simplest/best out-of-box use for current games.

[alenson]

@CharlesB

Thank you for explanation.

2) I understand that only a small factor of players have problem with dead zone and most players, especially who played on Xbox360 gamepad, do not see this as a problem. I would like to ask about game titles where people complained that small dead zone breaks the fun. Could you kindly name a few games that were tested and play better with the dead zone?

This is indeed a matter of personal preference and very subjective opinion, and I guess gamepads have been tested by plenty of people so you had much more evaluations than us, I'm not going to generalize, but I've played plenty of latest games (two 2011 titles too, Test Drive Unlimited 2 and Bulletstorm) on old Rumblepad 2 and I would never say that playing on F510 is better, aiming and driving is a much better (for me) on Rumblepad 2 without dead zones.

I guess, everyone were hoping that Xbox360 controller behavior won't be copied, as the dead zones on these gamepads were introduced to fix very bad centering on these controllers, Logitech gamepads never had this problem.

Please also note that, that plenty of PC players use AntiDeadZone hack for Xbox360 controllers:

http://www.plaatjesupload.nl/bekijk/2010/09/01/1283320756-553.jpg

[pr0ton]

I've been playing with my F-510 for several days now and started to get frustrated by trying to do fine tuned moves with the analog sticks. I am familiar with the word dead zone, so a quick search sent me to this thread. Reading through the posts of you and the answers of Logitech, I am amazed. Amazed by the fact that your problem already has waited months for a solution, and you probably lost your hope for things getting better.

I bought my first gamepad in 2003, it was only 15 euros then and this gamepad is still doing a great job: absolutely 0% dead zone setting + a robust feeling and force feedback,but only giving me DirectInput option . The 35 euro gamepad from Logitech gave me the idea I had bought something superb for a gampead, and as alenson mentioned, it was not just aimed at (a) XBOX360-controller special (race) game(s).

@alenson: about the refund, would this be possible, asking for a complete refund? Where and by whom I can ask for this refund: Logitech or the online shop which bought me the controller? You posted a picture on plaatjesuploaden.nl, so I suppose you' re from the Netherlands, do you think they've got good (Technical) Support there? I sent Technical Support a mail in which I explain this problem too..

PS: adding the D-option is a big plus to me, reason for buying this gamepad. After a lot of excellent working (game)hardware I bought from Logitech, I hope we can benefit from a great service too .

[Socob]

@pr0ton: Well, until recently, I was actually under the impression that this was a bug and was worked on somewhere at Logitech, so I still had a little hope left. However, now that we have experienced the most blatant case of, "It's not a bug, it's a feature!" I've ever seen, I'm pretty much done with this. Since CharlesB also sent out mails, the guys at the tech support were finally told what was going on and now gave me the same answer a day after. It's been over two months since I opened my fist support ticket. As the behavior is intentional, it's not going to be fixed, because apparently, "there is no issue".

Also, actually, I don't think alenson is from the Netherlands, but I don't know if he wants me to post about that publicly.

Needless to say, I am extremely disappointed. You cannot tell me that it is impossible to find a solution due to the XInput ("XINPUT") compatibility. If the controller supports DirectInput, it can be configured with DirectInput, otherwise your software team doesn't know what it's doing. However, I am not going to dwell on this for another 2 months. The only reason why I bought the F310 in the first place was because a button on my old Logitech Dual Action controller broke; I also happen to own Logitech speakers, a keyboard and a mouse. If Logitech refuses to support its customers, the only thing I can say is, "Farewell Logitech".

[alenson]

@pr0ton: First of all, you do not have to resign from your old DirectInput gamepad, please take a look at this:

http://code.google.com/p/x360ce/

If your gamepad is not on the list of preconfigured devices, just configure it yourself (you will have to do this just once) and you can play Xinput games on it too. Works on every game I have.

About the refund - I'm dealing with Polish Logitech tech support, my ticket, just like Socob's, has been opened for +- a month and I just wrote them, in the same support threat, that I would like to get the refund and give gamepad back to the Logitech. They answered right away, asked me for any invoice for the controller. I've made a photo of it, sent them and I'm waiting for their next move. It was at the last Friday. I'm felling cheated by Logitech and decided to give gamepad back for the sake of it (even though transport fees will eat most of the refund).

I've used image from NL hosting service because I didn't have a time to make my own image .

@Socob, exactly! If they care about the dead zone at all, they would let us change it in DirectInput mode, we would emulate Xinput in x360ce and cope with it (hardly, as buying Xinput gamepad that needs software emulation still would be a rip-off).

[pr0ton]

@Socob and alenson:

Tnx for quick response.

---

Socob wrote: If the controller supports DirectInput, it can be configured with DirectInput, otherwise your software team doesn't know what it's doing.

---

I'm not writing my own software , most of the games are rips off from the consoles with very limited gamepad support, seems Xbox360 controller calls are easiest to port to the PC. I know about the x360ce project, they've done a very neat job making the DirectInput controllers compatible, but it wasn't the only reason. The axis on the left and right shoulder are important for me too, better acceleration in racegames, not always full throttle. Beside, I just needed a second controller for multiplayer fun .

Got a quick answer from the Dutch Logitech Support, but it almost looks like an autogenerated message. Bottom line of it: I should install/recheck/update my drivers and ask my vendor for a possible refund. Logitech totally ignores that the fault lays at their side and I even sent him thís thread about the problem.

I'm very happy with this ''feature", but Logitech is a no-go brand for me now, will see what we'll do with this featurerich F510 controller. Logitech offering me a refund too is the thing I hope for..

[alenson]

@pr0ton:

You are welcome .

I'm not sure if Socob had you on mind writing about sotware teams .

Anyway, I would like to add some input into this discussion:

http://blog.logitech.com/2010/09/03/new-logitech-gamepads-bring-the-console-gaming-experience-to-pc-...

I would like to quote one of the answers about the dead zone from official Logitech Blog (from comments):

Our analog sticks have very precise return-to-center characteristics and do not have a significant deadzone. I am confident that if you have the opportunity to try one, you’ll be happy with its performance in driving games

I'm pretty sure that our dead zone is significant. Anyway, it does not change anything, case is pretty much closed .

[Socob]

@pr0ton:

I'm sorry, that probably wasn't very clear. That last paragraph of my post wasn't directed at you specifically anymore (even though it might look like it from the formatting), my apologies.

[pr0ton]

After three emails to the Dutch Logitech Support, no positive sign of a refund.

In mean time I will keep this thread alive until problem is solved .