05-31-2010 03:07 AM
I also have a question for those requesting a firmware rollback. You seem to be dismissing posts by users who are not experiencing the same problems. Doesn't this absence of a universal problem rule out firmware as the issue? If a problem is not consitant across the whole range of users then the problem lies deeper, either something is broken or a setting(s) need tweaking. I have been flying RoF since June and have exclusively used my G940 since October. I can tell you that I am not experiencing any of the problems I see mentioned. When I fly any of the RoF planes the stick forces seem completely natural to me.
05-31-2010 07:05 AM
I'm using my G940 with Thirdwire's StrikeFighters series of sims. I have not seen anyone post that they are not having issues with this sim.
I'm not dissmissing that it may a settings issue.
I played the sim before the firmware/software upgrade with everything force related set to the defaults.
I posted in an earlier post the settings changes I have tried. With the current firmware/software, neither the default settings, nor any change that I can think to try, replicate the force curves, or the behavior of the stick force increasing as a function of airpeed I had before.
05-31-2010 11:08 AM
ericinexile. It's a firmware issue. The centering force curves are gone with the new firmware. The new linear centering force may feel "natural" to you but not everyone.
05-31-2010 12:53 PM - edited 06-01-2010 02:46 PM
The new firmware did change the default handling of the stick, there's no doubt about that. (Made it better for me, for what it's worth). Like ericinexile, I've been able to tweak the settings of my various sims so that they feel the same as they did with the old drivers.
@JSFSim: Do you know if the Third Wire-people have perhaps released a demo of their software? I was not familiar with the title and can't find anything on their site. I would love to try this one (especially the Vietnam-version) and perhaps be able to help at the same time. However, I rarely buy games without first trying a demo.
@buddywoof: I read you mainly fly ROF, a game wich both eric and I have been able to successfully get 'up and running' again. Could you post your G940's global settings and the one's you are using in-game? (the force and shaking ones listed in the options -> responses menu under 'force feedback').
06-01-2010 05:26 AM
I'm not sure what a centering force curve is--which might make your point. My experience prior to the patch was a nice stick but a large center with no centering force or spring effect. After the patch I have a stick that is forced to center (in-flight) as it should be. The change was significant enough that I was able to remove all response curves from my RoF control settings, although I do still keep a small curve for yaw. In my Profiler, I have RoF set with damper at "0" and spring force at "45%" and no centering spring. The effect is almost exactly what I've experienced in my 25 years of flying real airplanes-nothing but slop at zero speed with stick forces increasing as airflow increases. Input forces are easy and smooth and completely lack the "gravel-iness" inherent with the stick prior to the update.
This stick now does for my hands what TrackIr did for my eyes. It's a huge leap in my gaming experience.
06-01-2010 07:12 PM - edited 06-01-2010 11:04 PM
25 years of flying real planes? That's a long time. If that's the case, you would know that these WWI crates had control surfaces that were pulley/cable controlled and there were no spring mechanisms to them. It should not feel springy as it does now. Yes, these old crates had purely mechanical flight control systems which means that the forces felt on the stick by the pilot depended entirely on the velocity of the crates and the control surface deflection angles (ie. the aerodynamic forces on the control surfaces were transmitted directly through the mechanisms and were felt directly by the pilot). This means more the deflection of the control surface, the stronger the centering force.....similar to the old implementation. I'm a certified pilot too and I can confidently tell you that there are no PC joysticks on the market today that feels like ANY, I repeat ANY real airplane (and that includes the G940 at it's current state at any setting). I'm not sure what plane you've been flying for 25 years that feels like the G940 with it's damper at "0" and spring force at "45%" and no centering spring. I'm fairly certain those settings don't mimic the feel of a real WWI crate. It's like saying there are PC steering wheels that feel like real steering wheels....and I'm sure anyone who's driven a car can tell you that it deosn't exist.
Anyway, you prefer the new implementation and I'm not arguing the merits of your choice. It's your preference and so good for you. However, I and many others don't like the new implementation so we are asking for a rollback capability to the old firmware. Logitech should have provided a choice instead of assuming everyone will like the new implementation. Hopefully Logitech will listen to us and provide a method to roll back for those who want to. I spent $300 of my hard earned money and I'd like the "feel" of the original joystick (as when I first purchased it) back. I don't think this is asking too much.
06-02-2010 05:26 AM
Ok, I won't argue your flying credentials. But in defense of mine I have 13,000 hours with a fair amount of time in some fairly old stuff but certainly nothing comperable to the planes we are discussing. However my first career as an instructor plus my time in the Cessna 120, Christen Eagle, J3, clipped-wing Cub, Pawnee, and several seasons glider towing with a Maule M6, plus gliders, I do feel gives me some background from which to evaluate the G940 as utilized by Rise of Flight. When I first sit in the pit, the stick will flop around with practically no centering force other than the weight of the surfaces acting on the cables. As I accelerate those forces increase. Now does it require a great deal of strength to move a contol to the extreme of its travel at high speed? No, I will admit that it does not. But I don't really want it to, which is why I set the spring strenth so low. I'll repeat that it does feel real to me or at the very least, as real as my expectations allow. Every year I have to spend two days in a $15M simulator to reassure the company that I still know how to fly. That big box suspended two stories high on hydraulic jacks does not suspend belief any better than does Rise of Flight with my current setup. You are right, that says more about me and the "merits of my choices" than it does about the realism of the feel of a G940. But if we can pare this down to your simple original request our differences are that I feel the current stick is far more life-like than it was previously. You feel the opposite. We are both right. But I think you are in for a long wait for any option to roll back to the original firmware. In the meantime, I hope a setting exists that will help mimic the experience you seek.
06-02-2010 07:26 AM
I don't think that the force responses from the G940 can really be commented on yet as there isn't a sim that has force effects designed for the G940. I assume that Logitech have worked out some kind of "translation" for the old effects to improve the centring effect in sims like IL2, ROF, DCS and FC2, but it's still basically a workaround. This is why ED and Logitech are now working to update the effects in DCS and FC2.
I totally understand buddywoof's point, the effects of wind resistance (in IL2 at least) seem incredibly simplified and not what MSFFB2 users report, but on the other hand most G940 users found the pre update effects less than ideal. Had I been asked by the logiteam to advise them (LOL) I would have kept the old game driven effects but take the new driver imposed centering spring to counteract the old flop zone. None of this happened however and we have another compromise that some are happy with and some are not.
The Rise of Flight fans should get on the forums and lobby the devs to update their sims' FFB effects to take advantage of the new hardware currently available, if they are passionate about delivering the best experience to their customers they'll get right on it as ED have done. As for IL2, I doubt wether TD would be interested in working on FFB updates but I hope Oleg and the team make an effort for the G940 in SOW.
I really think a sim with modernised effects is what we need before we can start discussing the FFB performance of the G940.
06-03-2010 04:47 AM - edited 06-03-2010 05:18 AM
This is an interesting observation, and one I share. Over the last few weeks I've had time to play ROF, FSX, DCS:BS, IL-2 and WOP. To me it seems that only FSX utilizes some of the more advanced possibilities that the G940 has to offer. If you want to feel the effects of turbulence and airspeed on your plane's control surfaces: that's the sim to play. Rolling and banking give a very nice sensation of counterpressure, as if you're forcing your crate against the airflow. In other sims I don't really notice this. They provide a more low-level force-feedback approach, in wich you feel a general (or slightly varying) amount of pressure on the stick when flying, and a bit of trembling when you fire your guns or taxi over the ground etc. This is not a shortcoming of Logitech's product. The sims simply aren't programmed to respond the way FSX does. So in order to get this level of immersion the different game developers need to become aware (and then care) that such effects can be programmed.
On a different (but somewhat related) note: I doubt that anything like a rollback-driver will be released on short notice. As I recall, apart from coding, Logitech's normal test-cycle takes about six weeks provided no new issues emerge. The development of the 5.09-driver wasn't planned initially: the Logitech team freed resources reserved for 6.00. If a rollback-version were to be developed, it would probably still have be done by this 'skeleton'-crew, adding additional time to it's development-cycle (and thus delaying 6.00 in the process). Writing software that makes it possible to revert to the old firmware might seem like an easy thing to do, but I think it's actually quite complex.