Steering Wheels - Joysticks - Headsets - Gamepads

[#1]

People get aftermarket products from Logitech because they want something that the OEM product does not provide. I have generously supported Logitech since 1995 when you released the Trackman Marble. Over the past 13 years, I have purchased your keyboards, joysticks, speakers, mice, trackballs, headsets, and steering wheels. I have owned FOUR of your steering wheels:

Original Logitech Wingman Formula Force – Not USB compatible
PlayStation 2 Force Steering Wheel – Just plain sucked, but the only PS2 wheel at the time
PlayStation 2 Driving Force – Replacement for the PC2 Force
Momo Force (Red) – Replacement for the Wingman Formula Force

All total, just in steering wheels alone, I have spent over $500. I purchased an Xbox 360 about two months ago and await Forza Motorsports 2. Guess what? I have to buy ANOTHER steering wheel?!?

Enough is enough.

Somebody at Logitech needs to stop waffling around and come up with an official stance on why your company steadfastly REFUSES to release multi-platform compatible products. I mean, let’s just put it all out there. Anybody knows that Logitech is not motivated to release products that work on all platforms because they would no longer be able to peddle 2 and 3 versions of the same product especially since…(brace for it)…IT IS AT THE LEAST A DRIVER UPDATE AND AT THE MOST A FLASH-ROM UPDATE THAT WOULD ALLOW MULTIPLATFORM COMPATIBILITY!!!!!!! I know I am not the only one that finds this practice to be totally rotten.

You poll your customers. You know the demographics. The majority of your customers are going to have at least two of the aforementioned platforms. In the day and age of $500+ dollar gaming consoles, there is no excuse for not releasing products that offer multiplatform support even at a premium price. Beyond the cost, who wants to have 3 different steering wheels/game controllers sitting around the house? Even worse…how is Mad Catz, a company with a reputation for releasing second rate peripherals, able to produce universal wheel for under $70?!?! That is just flat out embarrassing. Unfortunately, in all likelihood, I am going to have to end up purchasing Mad Catz’s gaudy, substandard Universal MC2 steering wheel because I am tired of spending $125+ every few years for a new Logitech wheel.

I have posted this and to be frank, I expect one or more of the following:

1) To be ignored by giving no response.
2) To be given a vague response that doesn’t touch on any of the issues that I presented above.
3) To be given a “No Duh!” statement like, “Logitech does not currently support multiplatform products”.
4) To have my posting deleted

I will say this…having spent over $1,000 with Logitech over the span of 13 years, I demand a straight answer to my inquiries. I don’t care if you send it to me personally via e-mail. Otherwise, even after all of the great products that you have produced and will continue to produce, you have lost my business as a customer. I simply can not support a company that takes advantage of their customers (read: me) in this way.

I await your reply.

Message Edited by JordanSim on 04-01-200701:06 PM

(Edited for language)

Message Edited by Pegasus on 04-04-2007 08:55 PM

[#2]

The game and platform (PC, XBOX, PS2, etc..) must support the control device, not the other way around. Our current wheels are standard HID controllers. If the game and platform offer this support, the wheel will work. So, the gatekeepers to control device support are the game developers and Console developers.

[#3]

Ok...hold up.

If the console and the game developers are the only ones that supposedly control the keys to nirvana, why is Logitech releasing PS-2, PC, and XBox specific wheels? There must be something that I am not following here, because Logitech MUST have some level of influence/relationship/communication with hardware and software developers. There HAS to be! There is no way that Logitech is going to release a wheel with 'XBox' plastered all over the box only to risk that Microsoft and other game companies not support it because they "choose" not to. There is no way that Logitech would spent the time and investment required to design, manufacture, and ship a wheel that won't be used. Help me out here because what you are telling me is going against my logic.

Even if what you are saying is true, then Logitech needs to either:

1) Lobby against hardware and software developers to have them support ALL of their HID controllers regardless of platform

2) Release a wheel with UNIVERSAL on the box because obviously this somehow has an effect on whether a hardware/game developer will support the HID device.

Again, as I stated in the first post, I am betting that Logitech is simply not motivated to lift a finger.

This is not Quantum Physics.

Message Edited by JordanSim on 04-02-200705:29 PM

[#4]

There are two answers to this issue.

First, at this point in time, Logitech is not licensed by Microsoft to develop a force feedback steering wheel for Xbox 360 - only corded controllers. The DriveFX wheel is, effectively, an Xbox 360 controller that is shaped like a steering wheel and has a force feedback motor in place of the standard vibration motors.

Second, even if Logitech were licensed to make a force feedback wheel for Xbox 360, there are significant technical limitations which prevent these wheels from functioning on on Xbox 360. The Xbox 360 features controller and force feedback architectures (XID, device-based force feedback playback) that are significantly different from the way our wheels work on PC, PS2, or PS3 (HID, host-based force feedback playback). It is not possible to enable Xbox 360 functionality with a software or firmware update.

Logitech understands that our customers wish to use our steering wheels on multiple gaming platforms. We have made significant efforts to ensure that our PC wheel drivers support our PS2 wheels, and our PS2 force feedback SDK supports our PC wheels. PS3 games that support Logitech force feedback also support the same list of wheels. At this point in time, these are the only three platforms with which it is possible to have a single force feedback wheel be compatible. Were it possible to effect a firmware or software change to enable Xbox 360 compatibility with our existing wheels, we would do so. Unfortunately, however, until Logitech is licensed by Microsoft to design and manufacture force feedback wheels, no Logitech force feedback wheels will function on Xbox 360.

[#5]

CPate,

Thank you for your detailed explanation. It has clarified a number of misconceptions about how business is done.

While I am frustrated at the current state of affairs dealing with support of the XBox 360, I have no choice but to wait out the situation. This is unfortunate because Forza Motorsports 2 is arriving very soon and the official Microsoft wheel is simply inferior in more ways than I can count. I tried it and simply does not meet my standards for build quality or feel.

Might I suggest that in the future, Logitech makes a better effort in providing official explanations to the masses in regard to hardware/software support. If you put your ear to the floor, you would probably hear the grumblings of many of your customers because they feel that Logitech has more control than what is reality. It would probably also be a good idea to let game developers and your customers know about the cross-platform compatibilities of your current crop of HID wheels. The reason why I say game developers is because my MOMO Force (red) worked fine with Gran Turismo 3, but was not recognized by Gran Turismo 4...which forced me to go out and get the Driving Force Pro. :/

Regards.

[#6]

If the issue really is XID vs HID, how come Xbox 360 Wireless wheel (XID) works just fine on Windows (HID) (via the Xbox 360 Wireless PC Dongle, see: http://www.xbox.com/en-US/hardware/x/xbox360wirelessgamingreceiver/)?

Why can't it go the other way for the G25? I'm not clear on this. Or is the it that it can, but MS is not allowing it?

[#7]

Everything related to controllers funcitoning on the Xbox 360 is a matter of whether Microsoft has licensed a company to produce a particular product. The G25 is not licensed by Microsoft as an Xbox 360 product, therefore it cannot work on Xbox 360.  If it were a licensed product, it would need to have significant microprocessor, firmware, and PCB layout changes in order for it to work with Microsoft's force feedback scheme for Xbox 360.  The way force feedback works on Xbox 360 is extremely different from the Windows method, and the electronics in our current products cannot support it. 

Message Edited by CPate on 04-04-200710:36 AM

[#8]

The reason you are able to use Xinput controllers in Windows is because Windows XP SP2 or higher has native driver support for both HID and Xinput devices. It is using the Xinput driver is this case, not the HID driver.

[#9]

As a long time Logitech customer; I am extremely proud of the company. Their excellent efforts on Driving Force and G25 leave no doubts about their commitment to an EXTREMELY small market segment. You want to complain about "cost" go look at what specialty builders are charging for a G25 level wheel ($2500 +) and then go ask ACT-LABS how many "platforms" they support.

Logitech has been officially supporting their Driving Force wheels on the PC (DF and DF PRO were playstation2 products) something they clearly didn't have to do. Now with the G25, they've completly set the standard.

Some other advice, start looking at the other simulators. I was also heartbroken that my G25 wouldn't work with the Xbox 360. I too love Fornza and Test Drive Unlimited but guess what, I still have Gran Turismo, Live For Speed, rFactor and hundreds more games that understand how important supporting Logitech is to them.

So before you talk about how much money you've "spent" with Logitech, consider how much money they've spent just bringing you outstanding products. Go ahead and buy some other cheap wheel, then try to enjoy Fornza 2. Simulation is all about "quality" and "accuracy" two things that Logitech puts above all else.

Maybe I'm bias, I've had two of every wheel they've made since the Driving Force.

Good day,
Tom
Austin, TX

Message Edited by Pegasus on 04-04-2007 09:08 PM

[#10]

And by the way, "spending $1000 over 13 years" doesn't make you a very good "customer". Here's an industry leading company that generated $1.482 billion revenue in 2005 and you're being "taken advantage of" because you didn't do your homework.

Please enjoy your "Madcatz" wheel. I'd cut my hands off before touching one, but hey look at these compelling features:

"The most realistic racing wheel available for the Xbox 360™. Wrap your hands around the rubber-grip wheel, extend the retractable leg supports, drop your foot onto the pedal and hang on. Vibration feedback adds to the realism. With ten analog action buttons, you can take the MC2 to Talladega, Le Mans and a no-holds-barred desert rally, all in the same afternoon. Officially licensed for Xbox 360™. Mad Catz promises you innovative, quality products for all your gaming needs.

# Features vibration feedback technology
# Double injected steering wheel with rubber coating is specially designed to provide optimal vibration feedback
# 10 High-performance action buttons provide superior control
# Retractable leg supports put you in the driver’s seat and keep you there
# Vertical vector design means when you throttle up, the pedals won’t take off
# Officially licensed for Xbox 360™ "

Simply "awesome";

Message Edited by Pegasus on 04-04-2007 09:14 PM